Hypothetical question here [Archive]

Power of three

03-02-2008, 12:06 PM

Isn't this on the juvenile and silly side?

Far from it IMHO. And if it was, what's wrong with being that way from time to time? There are too many people here now taking themselves and life too seriously.

As Nate says, there are countless on the forum who are prepared to take medication with all sorts of side affects to achieve fluent speech. And others who would go thousands in debt/spend thousands on a device to aid them in achieving that goal.

From my point of view, I live my life regardless of my state of speech, so there is nothing that I would sacrifice to attain fluency.

Because I know that I will achieve my goal with gains in my life, not sacrifices.

Great question Nate, and let's hope more people answer it.

andyr78

03-02-2008, 03:57 PM

Today I probably wouldn't give up much at all. If someone came to me and said I can cure your speech but you cannot have chocolate anymore, I would probably laugh at them today. But 10-15 years ago (14-19 years old), I would have probably given my left arm to speak fluently.

emily445455

03-02-2008, 07:29 PM

Personally, i wouldn't give up anything for fluent speech. I know I stutter for a reason...and have become a better person because of it. :)

andyr78

03-02-2008, 08:31 PM

Personally, i wouldn't give up anything for fluent speech. I know I stutter for a reason...and have become a better person because of it. :)

That is my outlook on my speech today. Starting my own family really puts other things in perspective.

divisi

03-02-2008, 08:31 PM

Personally, i wouldn't give up anything for fluent speech. I know I stutter for a reason...and have become a better person because of it. :)
Nice reply. I also believe I stutter for a reason.

I do all reasonable efforts that I can do for improving my fluency. Moreover, I've even considered becoming an SLP, not for my fluency, but for helping combat stuttering in the world. But I don't think I'll finally take that road, because my life has another direction.

Something I'll never do is taking meds (at least not until many years of testing). I'm pretty sure the stuttering cause is neurological, but I never liked brain-meds, so I won't take them. Another thing I wouldn't take is surgery.

JDRow

03-03-2008, 04:17 PM

The reason I ask is because there are people here who would ALLOW SOMEONE TO INJECT THEIR NECK!!!

I don't think that's so bad, if the injection were proven to be effective. I certainly wouldn't let somebody inject my neck with something without proof it would work, but if there were genuine evidence that the injection would stop me from stuttering, that's something I'd do, and I wouldn't see it as a particularly big sacrifice.

I'm not really sure what I'd be willing to do. I go to speech therapy now, and that doesn't seem like a huge sacrifice. I'd take a pill, if it were shown to be effective. I wouldn't spend all my savings or give up a limb or break off a relationship. Right now I feel like stuttering is annoying and sometimes embarrassing, and it would be nice not to, but things in my life are going pretty well and I wouldn't sacrifice any of it to not stutter. At times when stuttering felt more isolating and humiliating, and I wasn't happy with my life, I'd have been willing to give up a lot more.

Standingtall

03-03-2008, 06:02 PM

Today, i would not give anything for fluent speech. I will not make a deal with the devil either. There are way more serious conditions out there that have taken our loves ones away to the spirit world. I consider myself lucky in many ways.

Power of three

03-04-2008, 03:13 PM

nate

03-04-2008, 03:22 PM

I will not make a deal with the devil either. There are way more serious conditions out there that have taken our loves ones away to the spirit world.

S p i r i t . . . W o r l d?
O K.:p
LOL
U do stand tall, Standingtall. Word!
Nate

barrymcgee

03-13-2008, 12:58 AM

I'd give up my tonsils or my appendix! ;)

Hans

03-13-2008, 08:37 AM

Your answers confirm my suspicions. So, you tell your hard-luck stories via this forum because......?

Nicholas

03-13-2008, 09:27 AM

I wouldn't give up anything. It's an experience that I don't want robbed of me.

Hans

03-13-2008, 10:11 AM

I wouldn't give up anything. It's an experience that I don't want robbed of me.

Nothing is better than being cured of a debilitating illness, yet nothing is more frightening than being divested of a crutch.;)

JDRow

03-13-2008, 12:01 PM

Nothing is better than being cured of a debilitating illness, yet nothing is more frightening than being divested of a crutch.;)

Is there any reason that you continue posting your offensive, insulting comments here? You think we are all choosing to stutter; you think stuttering is a crutch and moral failing; you think that if we just created our own reality, we wouldn't stutter. Because apparently that worked for you, even though your wife still tells you you stutter. But you've convinced yourself you don't stutter, so whether you do or not you don't, and anybody who doesn't do exactly what you've done is choosing to continue to stutter when they could just decide not to.

Does it make you feel good to feel so superior to everybody here?

Nicholas

03-13-2008, 12:22 PM

I'm noticing a disconnect between the older and the younger stutterers. I'm not ill, I'm experiencing culture more harshly yes.

JDRow put it nicely.

JDRow

03-13-2008, 01:16 PM

I think most of the older stutterers here are great. I just don't understand why somebody thinks that telling people that it's their own fault that they stutter and that if they really wanted to, they could just stop, is helpful, or anything new. I'm guessing a lot of people here, myself included, heard that their entire lives, and were not helped at all by it.

I've mentioned before that my girlfriend's dad has cerebral palsy, and he wouldn't choose not to have it, or to have it "cured." He's happy with who he is, and he feels like he wouldn't be the person he is if he didn't have CP. Does that mean he's responsible for it? Could he just choose not to have it if he just wanted it enough or was a better person?

I just feel like the idea that we're all choosing to stutter because we're not trying hard enough not to is stupid and is one that has caused a lot of stutterers a lot of harm. I don't see why anybody on a forum that's supposedly a support forum would continually repeat that belief, and would be little people for attempting to deal with their stuttering in ways other than the one he recommends (like insulting people for going to traditional speech therapy, which apparently isn't as good as his method of becoming obsessed with your own thoughts and just not stuttering) unless they get some sort of pleasure out of hurting others, and they base their own sense of self-worth on making others feel badly.

I'm in a crappy mood this morning, so I'm sorry this is harsh, but I'm tired of some people repeating the same hurtful, damaging crap over and over and over.

nate

03-14-2008, 03:46 AM

I just feel like the idea that we're all choosing to stutter because we're not trying hard enough not to is stupid and is one that has caused a lot of stutterers a lot of harm.

One of my first posts ever was questioning whether there was something I was doing or something in my mind that was making me stammer.
And if I "stopped it", whether I would be able to use my mouth for activities other than eating. I wondered if maybe somehow I was stuttering coz it served some ulterior motive, like allowing me to be shy and aloof, or nonassertive, or pitiable, I dont know...
Anyhow I found out that even though I am guilty of sometimes blaming my misfortune on my speech, I had nothing to so with it, in fact the harder I tried not to stammer the more I did. Thats not consistent with the theory that we stammer on purpose or we hold on to it for some purpose. Nobody's would be that daft. It is hurtful when when people say that its a crutch. Even though it may be construed as one.
Its really painful to wake up every day and know that every...every single attempt at communication is going to be a collosal failure no matter how hard you try.
But its very easy to accept that it isnt worth trying to change it and accept that you stammer and you are comfortable with it.
And that's what I can never do. I'd lie if I said I've accepted my stammer. I wouldnt let them inject my neck but if there was a less bizarre way I'd go for it! But I have accepted who I am, the me that is me because of choices I made, not because I stammer. thats just something I do, and would love to stop doing.

Hans

03-14-2008, 07:44 AM

Is there any reason that you continue posting your offensive, insulting comments here? You think we are all choosing to stutter; you think stuttering is a crutch and moral failing; you think that if we just created our own reality, we wouldn't stutter. Because apparently that worked for you, even though your wife still tells you you stutter. But you've convinced yourself you don't stutter, so whether you do or not you don't, and anybody who doesn't do exactly what you've done is choosing to continue to stutter when they could just decide not to.

Does it make you feel good to feel so superior to everybody here?

No, Jd, not good at all. I feel an overwhelming sadness. You're right, even implied criticism is harmful and cruel. Since I'm unable to stop doing harm in my feeble attempts to help, I shall stop posting.

Good luck and happyness to all who post here.
Hans

JDRow

03-14-2008, 12:53 PM

Nice job trying to make me out to be the bad, mean guy driving you away from the forum, by talking about "implied" criticism.

I think it's pretty clear that this

Your answers confirm my suspicions. So, you tell your hard-luck stories via this forum because......?

and

nothing is more frightening than being divested of a crutch.

are directly insulting, and yet another example of your claiming that everybody here is choosing to stutter.

JDRow

03-14-2008, 12:56 PM

Anyhow I found out that even though I am guilty of sometimes blaming my misfortune on my speech, I had nothing to so with it, in fact the harder I tried not to stammer the more I did. Thats not consistent with the theory that we stammer on purpose or we hold on to it for some purpose. Nobody's would be that daft. It is hurtful when when people say that its a crutch. Even though it may be construed as one.

Exactly. I think you can use stuttering as a crutch, but that's not why you do it. People can use anything as a crutch, but that doesn't mean that they started the behavior for that reason, or that they could just stop if they wanted to. And, I think that, for most people, whatever benefits you might get from stuttering are definitely outweighed by the negatives. I also know that the harder I try not to stutter, the more I stutter, and so it's not a matter of my simply not trying hard enough, or just not wanting to enough.

DKoz

03-14-2008, 03:28 PM

I wouldn't give up anything. It's an experience that I don't want robbed of me.

exactly. I feel the same way

Power of three

03-14-2008, 06:28 PM

Your answers confirm my suspicions. So, you tell your hard-luck stories via this forum because......?

If you would care to take the time to read some previous posts in other threads by those posting in this thread you will see that not all are in the "why is my life so tough when everybody else has it so easy" and "my life is miserable because I am a stutterer" box.

I think from your posts that you're in total denial regarding your speech. I think I remember your wife even telling you that you still stammer. What is the view like with your head buried in the sand? A little limited?

No, Jd, not good at all. I feel an overwhelming sadness. You're right, even implied criticism is harmful and cruel. Since I'm unable to stop doing harm in my feeble attempts to help, I shall stop posting.

Good luck and happyness to all who post here.
Hans

But don't you dare leave the forum just because you can no longer take the heat. You keep on spouting verbal about life and how to fight adversity, yet when somebody takes issue with one of your posts, you tuck tail and scarper.

Stay on the forum and feel your overwhelming sadness, and keep on posting your feeble attempts at help.

A lot of your posts do come over with an impression that you know it all and the rest of us are scurrying about in the dark waiting for you to shine the torch for us.

Which is fine - it gives the forum a different point of view, and something to read that's a bit different.

Oh, and don't come back with "Thank you for your kind words" or any other bollox like that.

Just carry on being yourself.......

Grandma5

03-14-2008, 07:04 PM

I sure wouldn't want to do that. Believe me, I've been there so I know what high school, college, job interviews etc can be like. As to what I would give up to stop stuttering, I would give up my time, my money and most anything else I own. WHY??? Because I think finding the cure to stuttering in my lifetime, and to be a part of it so no one else whould after to endure this defect would be the most wonderful thing I can imagine. After I die they can have my brain or anything else that might would help. Finding a cure is my number one goal. Not only for me but for the whole world. Respectfully, Grandma5

nate

03-14-2008, 08:40 PM

No, Jd, not good at all. I feel an overwhelming sadness. You're right, even implied criticism is harmful and cruel. Since I'm unable to stop doing harm in my feeble attempts to help, I shall stop posting.

Good luck and happyness to all who post here.
Hans

Hans grow up!
Looking forward to your next post:D
Nate.

202

03-15-2008, 01:18 AM

The reason I ask is because there are people here who would ALLOW SOMEONE TO INJECT THEIR NECK!!!
I just want to know how far you will all go. i dont hink its juvenile in the least. i just want to understand how desperate a person can be to speak relatively fluently
Nate

ahhhh still sore about that, are you? Your a funny one, i'll give you that, right down to your grammatically incorrect posting style.

And yes, I would most definitely take an "INJECTION IN THE NECK!1!!!!1!"(as you would type it) if the substances being injected was proven to work.

nate

03-15-2008, 02:45 AM

ahhhh still sore about that, are you? Your a funny one, i'll give you that, right down to your grammatically incorrect posting style.

And yes, I would most definitely take an "INJECTION IN THE NECK!1!!!!1!"(as you would type it) if the substances being injected was proven to work.

Thats it 202, I'm going to kill you now! I'm going to call the police and I am going to sue you! I am going to put a hex on you! I am going to make a voodoo doll of you and shaft it with alot more than pins! I am going to dunk it in the nile and wish you the most painful death imaginable. How dare you come into my post and state your opinion? The nerve of some people!

I am just kidding. I'm glad your feelings are on the mend. And I'm sorry I said you were pathetic and weak willed. I was miffed and I overeacted. At least you didn't call me a douchebag (whatever that means), or stupid, or a dumbass. And you didn't use the f-word once. I'm impressed you find me funny. You aren't as far gone as I thought though I still think jab in the neck is BIZARRO in the xtreme. I hope you know that Sudan is far away from Cambodia. BTW, My typing is excellent:cool:
Peace bruv!
Nate

urbanmermaid

03-15-2008, 11:05 PM

As Nate says, there are countless on the forum who are prepared to take medication with all sorts of side affects to achieve fluent speech. And others who would go thousands in debt/spend thousands on a device to aid them in achieving that goal.

i havent experienced any side effects from the medication im taking. but then what works for me may not work so well on other people...
as for the device.. i would never spend that amount of money on something like that. its just plain stupid.

im wondering... how much does anxiety affect you all? this is interesting because i heard that certain medications (also pagaclone) supposedly work only on people who experience high anxiety related to their stuttering.

are there any of you who have completely accepted the fact they stutter and talking (making a speech for example or a presentation) doesnt scare u at all???

202

03-16-2008, 03:14 AM

i havent experienced any side effects from the medication im taking. but then what works for me may not work so well on other people...
as for the device.. i would never spend that amount of money on something like that. its just plain stupid.

im wondering... how much does anxiety affect you all? this is interesting because i heard that certain medications (also pagaclone) supposedly work only on people who experience high anxiety related to their stuttering.

are there any of you who have completely accepted the fact they stutter and talking (making a speech for example or a presentation) doesnt scare u at all???

i will NEVER accept i stutter, because in doing so i will lose all motivation to practice fluency techniques or be interested in devices or meds or whatever.Accepting your a stuttering, and that you always will be, scares me. I will never accept that.

Adrian

03-16-2008, 04:59 AM

are there any of you who have completely accepted the fact they stutter and talking (making a speech for example or a presentation) doesnt scare u at all???

For the most part I would fit that description. I do Toastmasters speeches and work presentations with no fear. Although, a live TV interview would still scare me. ;) A few years ago public speaking scared the hell out of me, but, now, I have done it so many times that I have become numb to the experience of stuttering in front of a group.

Adrian

03-16-2008, 05:06 AM

i will NEVER accept i stutter, because in doing so i will lose all motivation to practice fluency techniques or be interested in devices or meds or whatever.Accepting your a stuttering, and that you always will be, scares me. I will never accept that.

I think you can accept that you stutter and still strive for better speech. I accept that I will most likely stutter to some extent for the rest of my life, but I still practice fluency techniques. I view fluency like a Porsche, sure I would love to have one and would be willing to work a bit harder to get one, but, at the same time, I am fine with my 10 year old Toyota that breaks down occasionally.

Nicholas

03-16-2008, 07:01 AM

JDRow

03-17-2008, 07:57 PM

i will NEVER accept i stutter, because in doing so i will lose all motivation to practice fluency techniques or be interested in devices or meds or whatever.Accepting your a stuttering, and that you always will be, scares me. I will never accept that.

I've also found, like others have said, that trying to accept stuttering has made it easier for me to work on my speech. I guess it depends on what you mean by accepting stuttering. I'm not happy that I stutter, but when I think of accepting it, to me that just means accepting that I'm not a worse (or better) person because I stutter, and that there isn't anything fundamentally wrong or flawed about me because of it. I had gone to speech therapy on and off during school, and I think partly it was totally ineffective because I felt like there was something wrong with me--beyond just how I talked--because I stuttered. Nobody else did, so I figured I must have some deep-rooted psychological problems or moral failings (which is what other people seemed to think), and I can't imagine that speech therapy is going to work very well if you feel like your entire being is flawed because you stutter.

I found speech therapy much more effective when I was able to feel like I'm not more messed up or lazy than anybody else. It feels, I found, completely impossible to work on your speech when you think that you need to become an entirely different person in order not to stutter. So I see acceptance not as meaning that I like stuttering or even that I'm really okay with it, but just that I'm okay with myself even though I stutter. I can accept that it's something I do, that I'm trying to work on, that doesn't reflect on what kind of person I am, and that I'm not a totally flawed person because of something I do when I talk.

dritan

03-17-2008, 11:05 PM

To all Press and News Agencies!

On 11th May, 2007, in the beautiful Croatian coast town of Cavtat, near Dubrovnik the 8th World Congress For the People Who Stutter, organized by International Stuttering Association and the Croatian Association “Hinko Freund”, concluded its activities with a new message for the world. More then 350 representatives of national stuttering associations, scientists, speech an language therapist, persons who stutter and others interested in stuttering, exchanged their ideas and studies, for a better understanding of stuttering and its recognition as a spectrum disability with heavy consequences on the lives of people affected by this shattering communication disorder.

In the conclusion of the congress, ISA elected its new Board and its new Chair that will lead this international association spread everywhere in the world for the next 3 years.

Mr. Benny Ravid from Israel Stuttering Association was elected Chair of the Board of ISA

ISA Statement

For the world to understand stuttering and remove ignorance we must all move beyond the borders of our own village.

In closing the 8-th World Congress For the People Who Stutter, with the theme “Inclusion: Creating Our Place In Society,” the International Stuttering Association, has chosen to spread the message that came out of all the discussions from the key speakers and other participants, using the words of Dr. Moussa Dao, from Burkina Faso, who said:

“Being physically disabled as well as a Person Who Stutters, has made me think a lot about stuttering: about the frustration of speaking, but not being able to say the right words, the need to find understanding for my disabilities from fellow human beings so we can all overcome our ignorance.

If by magic, I was offered the choice to be free of one of my disabilities, to run or to speak without stuttering, I would happily keep my crippled legs in exchange for speaking without stuttering. Unfortunately, my physical disability attracts more attention than my stuttering.

We can get out of our village and discover that the world is a beautiful place where you should be listened to, for what you are saying, not the way you are saying it. There is need for so much respect and understanding. I have seen in the schools of my country that small steps towards better understanding of stuttering, especially in children, has freed them from discrimination and teasing, and has opened new windows for their lives.

We should work together. We must let everyone know that stuttering is a big problem not only because it affects more than 60 million people all over the world, but because it is misunderstood and ignored by society and the majority of the world’s governments.”

Nicholas

03-18-2008, 12:12 AM

202

03-18-2008, 02:11 AM

Perhaps I missed what this man sacrificed.

This man wants to represent stutterers and yet, if given the choice, he would dissolve these chains and burdens. I understand he's trying to say that stuttering has caused him more frustration than his physical disability, but I'm ashamed to think that he would rather be cured by means of a miracle than to stick it out with the rest of us.

Theres nothing wrong with that.I'm willing to bet every single person who stutters wants to be cured by a miracle, and believe me they would never come back to this forum.Myself included. Honestly, if there was suddenly some miracle cure(that actually worked) wouldnt you take it? I know I would.

Nicholas

03-18-2008, 05:28 AM

Theres nothing wrong with that.I'm willing to bet every single person who stutters wants to be cured by a miracle, and believe me they would never come back to this forum.Myself included. Honestly, if there was suddenly some miracle cure(that actually worked) wouldnt you take it? I know I would.

I think you obscured what I said.

I would love for there to be a cure, and I support stuttering research obviously. But I don't support divine intervention because I don't believe in it.

Bill Hargis

03-18-2008, 04:26 PM

I agree, I recall as a child being ridiculed by adults because of a stammer or block. There was a time I would have given an arm for fluency. That's why I gambled the 4000 bucks on the speecheasy. Luckily if worked for me. I also would donate my body to med research if it would help.

JDRow

03-18-2008, 08:23 PM

If you would care to take the time to read some previous posts in other threads by those posting in this thread you will see that not all are in the "why is my life so tough when everybody else has it so easy" and "my life is miserable because I am a stutterer" box.

I think from your posts that you're in total denial regarding your speech. I think I remember your wife even telling you that you still stammer. What is the view like with your head buried in the sand? A little limited?

But don't you dare leave the forum just because you can no longer take the heat. You keep on spouting verbal about life and how to fight adversity, yet when somebody takes issue with one of your posts, you tuck tail and scarper.

Stay on the forum and feel your overwhelming sadness, and keep on posting your feeble attempts at help...

Just carry on being yourself.......

Power of Three, you are much more generous than I was, and I'm sorry to see that Hans hasn't been back. I can't help but think that a lot of what he says stems from self-hatred more than anything else, and he probably could use support, as much as he talks like he has all the answers. A lot of his posts have bothered me, since he began posting here, because of his belief that we are choosing to stutter and stutter because we're weak, but I never stopped to think before that he holds those same beliefs about himself, which I know is a really bad place to be. So I do hope he comes back, because I know that, before I was ready to accept that stuttering wasn't my fault, just knowing some people felt that it wasn't was a relief.

202

03-18-2008, 08:30 PM

I think you obscured what I said.

I would love for there to be a cure, and I support stuttering research obviously. But I don't support divine intervention because I don't believe in it.

I don't believe in divine intervention either, I meant a medical cure...

Nicholas

03-20-2008, 05:47 AM

I don't believe in divine intervention either, I meant a medical cure...

I think I misconstrued what we were talking about. Sorry.

mufaa

03-23-2008, 10:06 PM

Going with what the thread wanted and intended to be...

I would certainly not give my arm, leg, sight and sound for fluent speaking! I can speak at least! But i would happily cut out 20 years of my life for fluent speaking. I don't mind dying early. And as they say, one day as a King than 100 hundred days a beggar!

eva

03-30-2008, 09:19 AM

I'd like to answer this question too. I see it this way. If i want to get rid of one 'fault' in me, i would have to give up one good thing in myself in exchange. And i cant think of anything id be ready to give up. Do i want to be ugly and fluent? No. Fat and fluent? No. Stupid and fluent? Never. If i was born without a leg, i would be probably now wondering in some other forum what would i be ready to give up for having two legs. Somehow i see that scenario worse than this one, wondering what i would give up for fluent speech. So i'd keep my body parts in their places too.

I wouldn't either replace my stuttering with any other fault. For example being blind would be much worse. Or having a serious illness. Stuttering is not at least going to kill me.

I dont think i would sacrifice anything in my life either. Not even a minute of my lifetime. Not the change to find my soulmate and live happily ever after. I woudn't give up any experience i've had or the experiences i will have in the future. Life is too good to let it be ruined by people who think you should be fluent.
I wouldnt give up anything for fluent speech, nobody is perfect anyway so with my luck there would be something much worse wrong with me if i didnt stutter. I can only be thankful.

Giving up chocolate would be just pure madness.

Nicholas and JDRow, nice posts

nate

03-30-2008, 01:24 PM

Giving up chocolate would be just pure madness.

Aye, that it would certainly be! I take it back:D
But I think I might still give up meat.
Nate
---------------------------------------------------Dont Hate, Appreciate

BenLZ

03-31-2008, 03:52 AM

Um, what would I give up? That's hard to say, since I'd need time to think it over, it's an interesting question though. I would most likely give up my left arm immediately, as well as one of my legs. I'd have to think it through more if it involved something more serious than that.

Foxglove

03-31-2008, 05:14 PM

I'm a materialist so I'm not giving anything up :P
That and the way I see it my stutter makes me who I am. It's a personal battle that I intend to win one day so I'm not going to sacrifice anything for the sake of winning anything. Life isn't meant to be easy, so it's the difficult wins that give the most satisfaction.

JCarver

04-03-2008, 08:35 PM

April 3, 2008

Fellow Stutterers,
Thank God for this site. A little information about me… I’m 41 and a life- long stutterer. I think that I am a pretty successful (Thank God) business owner. I own a couple different firms. Still, I am terrified to speak although my businesses require it of me. One of my businesses is a Insurance/Financial Planning firm, another a greeting card company while another I have authored a self-help book. I get so frustrated with myself as I wish fluency would, one day, be my friend. Regardless, I push on and you can too. I desire to be an inspiration/encouragement to those who desire it.

A couple ideas, I know those of us who stutter wish they could express themselves without the embarrassment of our speech. I found a way…my greeting card business…it’s awesome. You can try it for free at www.sendoutcards.com/10327 It’s a way for you to express your feelings in a card in a way that just won’t come out your mouth.

Another idea is to read my book. It clearly tells of my struggles and how I was able to deal with them.
http://www.lulu.com/content/2134271 This site is where you can get more information about my book.

Again, my role (here) is not to sell you anything but put tools in your hands to do something regardless of your struggle. You can overcome anything. Let me help!

John Carver
The Carver Group
15 E Main St #223
Westminster, MD 21157
JohnCarver@hughes.net – Email
410-905-8336 - Cell